TRAVELLER Digest 578

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re:  Discarding TNE?!, & various... by Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  2) Zho's and the Empress Wave by fredm@datasync.com (Paul)
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 577 by Douglas Berry <dberry@mailhost.hooked.net>
  4) Getting started with Traveller... by Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  5) Re: Big giant (star) in the Empty Quarter by Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
  6) Re:  Discarding TNE?!, & various... by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  7) RE: Discarding TNE?!, & various... by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
  8) RE: Traveller software and Gas Giant Skimming and WAR!!!! by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
  9) Re: Zho's and the Empress Wave by "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
 10) Re: Zho's and the Empress Wave by Shalom Zaidfeld <yu145850@YorkU.CA>
 11) MM on AOL by Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
 12) RE: Zho's and the Empress Wave by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
 13) Re: MM on AOL by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
 14) Re: Gas Giant Refueling Drawbacks by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 15) Re: MM on AOL by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:41:06 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Discarding TNE?!, & various...
Message-ID: <1124daa0@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

Responding to Phil Pugliese:

>>It's GDW's (& your) ox that's gone astray & the demise of GDW shows how
far astray that ox has gone. Traveller did best with the original back-
ground & that's where it should return if it wants to survive.

Let's be frank here. It's obvious that you don't care much about what I
want bcause it's not what you want. Well, the feeling is quite mutual...<<

As far as whose ox has gone astray, that's a matter of opinion.  I think that
FarFuture would offend more people than it pleased by arbitrarily stamping out
80 years of history, though.

And addressing not caring what you want, etc., maybe I haven't made myself clear
that what you want _is_ what I want.  But I'd rather see them do it in the
_future_.  I don't much like the RCES background either or the _extent_ to which
they let Virus run rampant.  I was extremely disappointed,...no, downright
pissed!...when GDW trashed all that great civilized space.  So much diversity
and character thrown out the window.  But throwing out continuity is not the
answer.  What's to stop them from throwing out the next one, too?  Or the next
one?  Or the next one after that?  Once it's done, it's done.  Like it or not,
GDW was the controlling force behind Traveller and IMO, we have to respect that
and move forward.  You know what they say, "You can't go home."

FarFuture's best interests do not lie in appeasing the few remaining players of
the game held over from the CT era who refuse to move forward.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:55:40 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Zho's and the Empress Wave
Message-ID: <199602021755.LAA18305@osh1.datasync.com>

I'm hoping that this post will generate more response than my first one.

Can we all stop bickering about what Traveller should be like, and discuss
the current game as is?  I hope so, because I'd really like to get more
answers to this post than I did to my Vargr question!

I'm wondering (and forgive me if I've missed out on the initial discussion)
what everyone's opinion is of the Empress wave.  What is it?  Why is it
coming?  What caused it and what are it's effects.  I have some thoughts,
but, as a New Traveller, I would rather hear from some of the More
experienced Travellers about their opinion before I commit to anything.

IMHO, Virus is killing itself off.  Everyone is complaining that it is
unworkable.  I can agree with that to a certain extent, however as the
Regency and RC continue to expand and while Virus continues to be self
destructive Virus will shortly be a problem in small pocket areas (The Black
Curtain, Etc.).  I reread something in the TNE book (page 97) last night
that supports this...

                "Most strains of Virus died out after a single generation,
and so         it is uncommon to find active strains of it anywhere."

        ...

        "...many remaing vampire fleets [and presumably individual ships as
well] are no longer jump-capable and instead locked in a single star system..."

These ships could be part of an adventure if desired, but "Most strains of
Virus DIED OUT [emphasis added].  IMHO this is why the RQS was so
successful.  It has nothing to do with success, it was luck.  It has already
been mentioned that a quarintine over that much area would be nearly
impossible, the RQS was lucky to be in the right place at the right
time(Rape of Trin excluded).

IMHO, The major issues are the coming Regency/RC conflict, the Empress Wave,
and just plain expansion.  The Regency/RC conflict could amount to little
more than minor skirmishes or it could be a full fledged war.  (BTW, The
recent discussions on the effects of Tech Level on wars has been
interesting.  This could be a major factor in the who would win an all out
war.)

The Empress Wave could be a major changing point in the entire Traveller
universe (although after the obvious effect Virus had on some people, I
personally would advise MM to avoid any sweeping changes from the Empress Wave).

Finally, The expansion of the RC and the Regency into the wilds should be a
major issue.  There's a lot of space out there to be retaken, and somebody
has to do it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I never had the privelege(sp) of CT,
but wasn't CT about expanding into areas where the players knew little to
nothing about what they were getting into.

In fact, the RC has everything you could want with regards to expansion.
You want a blood bath, have an S&G Raid.  You want deep thought, Try a
bootstrap or colonization project.  You want ethical issues, again the
bootstrap or colonization or even the rebellion on Spencer.  You want
players to know nothing, The system data on where they are going cannot be
located.  You dont want a new subsector to play in ("Mom said I can't leave
the proverbial safety of the backyard.") do any of the above in the RC.

This doesn't include the potential of espionage, starting in the wilds,
military service, freelance trading, etc.  I've been reading a lot lately
about how blood and gutsy TNE is.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Sure
that's the Easy way, but if we wanted an easy hobby, we would have opted for
homemade nuclear reactors.

I know three things will happen because of what I said here.  Some will
praise me, some will flame me, but most will forget me.  But for pity sake
lets stop bickering.

Paul

"I still need a good tagline."

P.S.  Please answer my questions about the Empress Wave.

P.S.S.  Please, please answer my post about the Vargr in Digest 571.  I
would appreciate an educated reasonable response.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:58:16 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <dberry@mailhost.hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 577
Message-ID: <199602021758.JAA20571@chum.hooked.net>

On Fri, 2 Feb 1996 traveller@mpgn.com said:

>Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:13:31 -0700
>From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu

>It's not the rules that killed TNE & it wasn't the rules that made CT.
>It was the background. How long did TNE last? <snicker> Yeah, it was
>a real winner wasn't it. Now let's look at the CT background. No com-
>parison. Traveler will stay dead unless MM get's back to the background
>that made Traveller a winner & that wasn't MT or TNE, it was CT.

I have played Traveller since its release.  I have owned, or still own
every item ever released by GDW or DGP, along with many of the FASA,
Seeker, Gamelords, etc., products.  Hell, Traveller is my handle on a local
BBS!  I feel qualified to respond to this.. gentleman.

Classic Traveller was a good game.  Please note the use of the word "was".
The system used was quite good for the late seventies, and should be
remembered as a milestone in RPGs.  Now as for background, the Imperium got
a 2-line mention in Book 4, and a vague definition in The Spinward Marches.
 Most of the Imperial feel came about late in the CT period, after about
1982, with JTAS articles and Supplements 8 & 11.

I have been accused of commuting between reality and the Traveller
universe, so please rest assured that I was among those most concerned by
the Rebellion, and later, Virus.  However, I saw these as good things,
advanceing the storyline.  No longer could the players comfortably hop from
system to system, secure in the knowledge that the Imperial Navy,
Travellers' Aid Society, and all the other trappings of Imperial culture
were there to protect them.  They had to deal with the knowledge that
society was ripping itself apart, which made for wonderful adventuring
oppurtunities that went beyond the traditional "patron at the startown bar"
stereotype.

With Virus, we have redefined the Traveller Universe.  This is not post
holocaust role playing, it is gaming on a frontier, trying to rebuild what
has been lost.  For those of us who prefer the traditional Traveller
setting, which includes myself, the Regency provides the most detailed
sector in SF-RPG history, The Spinward Marches.  Nearly 20 years of
development has gone into that area, and it shows in the Regency
Sourcebook.

As an aside, my current campaign involves the crew of a Jayhawk-class free
trader in the Lunion subsector.  No mention has been made of the RQS,
Virus, The Collapse, or any other "New Era" convention, with the minor
exception that one of the crew is a Zhodani refugee.

All the information is in place if you wish to play a campaign set in 1104.
 If you want, have a member of the IISS Imperial Bodyguard Detail shoot
down Dulinor as he goes for his pistol, or have Iphengia live, or
whatever.. it is YOUR campaign, do what thou will shall be the whole of the
rules..




--
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
Gun control is hitting your target center-mass....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:10:40 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: nmiceli@moe.morgan.edu
Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Getting started with Traveller...
Message-ID: <11254c80@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

Responding to N.S. Miceli:

>>>As someone who is relatively new to Traveller, but not strategy
>games (i.e., Harpoon), what do you recommend as a way of becoming
>familiar and literate regarding how to play Traveller?<<

Simon's (hopefully) humorous comment aside, I think your best bet to get started
with Traveller is to hold out until Marc Miller's FarFuture Enterprises releases
Traveller, 4th ed., probably some time this summer.

That way, you'll be on the ground floor when the next, and hopefully _last_
incarnation of the game for awhile, hits the stands.

You'll have multiple historical backgrounds and media options to choose from.

If you want to immerse yourself in a bit of Traveller lore to get yourself ready
to conduct a campaign, I recommend the following products from each of the
game's incarnations:

>From Traveller: TNE:
--The Regency Sourcebook (excellent resource; the bible of my campaign)
--Path of Tears (if you like the idea behind the RCES campaign, this is your
tome)
--The TNE main rulebook

>From MegaTraveller:
--The Rebellion Sourcebook (a must have)
--Imperial Encyclopaedia
--Starship Operator's Manual
--Both DGP alien modules (Vilani & Vargr, Solomani & Aslan)

>From CT:
--Both Library Data Supplements (A-M and N-Z)
--Books 4, 6, 7 and 8
--Supplement 3, The Spinward Marches
--Supplement 10, The Solomani Rim (where Terra is)
--Any of the Adventures, but I wouldn't recommend any of the Double Adventures,
except maybe "Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest."

I tried to keep the list small so it won't hit your pocketbook _too_ badly if
you decide to use it, but there are multitudes of other great Traveller
materials out there.  This list really only scratches the surface.  The above
should get you at least partially up to speed on Traveller and give you a good
idea where you'd like to go and what you'd like to do once you begin a campaign.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:12:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Big giant (star) in the Empty Quarter
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960202100734.25079A-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>


Alvin Plummer asked how to deal with an extremely luminous star which, if
visible from Earth, would be brighter than Antares.  Niven and Pournelle
faced a similar problem in "The Mote in God's Eye" -- they needed (for
plot reasons) a very large, very bright red giant star closer to Earth
than any such actually are.  Their solution was to hide it behind the
Coal Sack Nebula.  You might be able to do something similar...a few
lightyears of relatively dense interstellar gas and dust along the line
of sight to your star would effectively hide it from our view.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Berry                      CompuServe cancellation ID: 11089132
cberry@cinenet.net               Don't support Net censorship!
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 13:26:02 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Discarding TNE?!, & various...
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960202182602.0075c49c@TanSoft.com>

At 12:39 PM 2/2/96 -0500, Chris wrote:
>Responding to Phil Pugliese:
>they let Virus run rampant.  I was extremely disappointed,...no, downright
>pissed!...when GDW trashed all that great civilized space.  So much diversity
>and character thrown out the window.

Actually, this fits with the logical progression of things (I was pretty
upset at GDW as well).  Traveller's story line is very close to that of
Asimov's Foundation series.  Down to the PsychoHistorians and Project
JumpStart (JumpStart caches are basically "Foundation").  Expect Avery back
as the Mule after the Emperess Wavefront gets done with him.  "Collapse and
Rebuild" that is the story.  We are at the end of a collapse and time for a
rebuild.  My point is I want to play a bit more positive game, like
Traveller was -- High Adventure, the times of Heros, not so dark,  looking
to just survive.

I think GDW realzied too late that the players wanted the Regency area more
than the RC.

>FarFuture's best interests do not lie in appeasing the few remaining
players of
>the game held over from the CT era who refuse to move forward.

FarFuture's bests interests are to better the Traveller System.  I don't
think that there are just a few remaining players of a time held over.
There are two many Xboat'ers for that.  The CT gang have said the same thing
about why MM should appease the few TNE players out there.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:54:49 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Discarding TNE?!, & various...
Message-ID: <199602021854.NAA24203@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 02 Feb 1996 04: 14:00 EST
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 13:54:49 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: It's not the rules that killed TNE & it wasn't the rules that made CT.
: It was the background. How long did TNE last? <snicker> Yeah, it was
: a real winner wasn't it. Now let's look at the CT background. No com-
: parison. Traveler will stay dead unless MM get's back to the background
: that made Traveller a winner & that wasn't MT or TNE, it was CT.
:  However, the attitude you're taking is no better than the one GDW
:  took.  You would prefer to displace all the TNE people because quite
:  simply, it's what you want.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:
: Funny how you object to the same attitude you have when it show up
: in others. You've already demonstrated that you have no concern about
: my displacement yet you object when I show the same lack of concern
: about yours.

No, I'm not taking your attitude.  You're saying that we should do
away with TNE altogether.  I'm saying that you should try to
accomodate them.  I'm not sorry to say that our attitudes have nothing
in common.  You don't believe me.  Fine, I attribute it to the fact
that you can't stand me attacking your position.  But your position is
to kill one facet of the Traveller universe.  Mine is to allow all of
them to be supported.  I'm all for CT era products, and I sure hope
that they reprint many of the originals and come out with new ones
since the dearth in my Traveller collection is from that particualr
era.

:  MM has already propossed the solution to this problem.  Allow multiple
:  settings at different parts of the timeline's history.  It works!
:  It's simple, it's elegent, and many other companies do it.  Alas, all
:  the CT people seem to hate this idea.  Why?  Is it because they know
:  the future?  So what, set your adventure in 1050 and your characters
:  will never see the Rebellion.  Play in the Regency in 1202 and never
:  have them leave it's borders.  Play in the future ``restored
:  Imperium'' timeline.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Maybe because we can't see why Traveller should continue to drag TNE's
: dead weight behind it?

See, that's what I'm talking about.  To you it's dead weight.  To many
other players it's not.  However, you refuse to even allow the
possibility of their happiness.

: There's no way I can see that MM will be able fully support multiple
: timelines. The new operation will undoubtedly be on a shoestring. The
: competition is to see which gets to go first because whichever does,
: if it fails, will probably end Traveller for good. TNE has already had
: it's shot & has failed. Trying it again will only repeat that failure.
: MT ran the system down. CT was the only background that was a success.

Why not?  CT was the only background that was a success with you.
Many people like all of them.  Many people like the Rebellion.  Making
a sourcebook for each era isn't going to weaken anything.  Instead of
providing something for everyone, you would rather provide something
for yourself.  And you said I was the same as you?

: Well all I can say is that we're just acting the same way you are.
: We are interested in products that fulfill our desires & not interested
: in those that don't. Perhaps you should stop indulging your own TNE
: habit before you criticize my CT one?
: It's time to give the CT background a shot at saving Traveller.
: And (as you've already stated to me) you can always just make up your
: own timeline.

No, we're not acting in the same way.  What you're proposing leaves
many Traveller players out in the cold.  If you're asking for products
that fulfill desires then you will need to cater to everyone.
Granted, some timelines may deserve more products than others.

Also, let's get something straight real quick Phil.  I'm not bashing
your indulgence of CT.  What I am bashing is your attitude that says
to do away with everything but.  You assume that because I said your's
is a very poor, limited, and self-indulgent attitude that I am all-for
TNE and nothing else.  Take the blinders off and see what I'm really
saying please!

Just so you don't misconstrue me again, here goes:  Support all
aspects of Traveller!  Period.

And just so you know, I prefer to play in the Rebellion!

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:57:02 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Traveller software and Gas Giant Skimming and WAR!!!!
Message-ID: <199602021857.NAA24316@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 02 Feb 1996 06: 58:14 EST
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 13:57:01 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: So we're all assuming that everywhere is hugely devastated, yes? Isn't there
: the plausible excuse that the TNE stuff only presents this concept because
: the books (including the rule book) are clearly all written from the
: viewpoint of the RC, who have no contact with anyone outside them?
:
: Is it therefore not possible that the Virus was not actually as devastating
: as was thought, but that perhaps many areas survived much like the Regency.

I already suggested this once.  It seems everyone would rather believe
that in the TNE universe everything is just plain screwed up,
including the parts that we have no idea about.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:22:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Zho's and the Empress Wave
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960202131439.6891A-100000@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Paul wrote:

> I'm hoping that this post will generate more response than my first one.
>
> Can we all stop bickering about what Traveller should be like, and discuss
> the current game as is?  I hope so, because I'd really like to get more
> answers to this post than I did to my Vargr question!
>
> I'm wondering (and forgive me if I've missed out on the initial discussion)
> what everyone's opinion is of the Empress wave.  What is it?  Why is it
> coming?  What caused it and what are it's effects.  I have some thoughts,
> but, as a New Traveller, I would rather hear from some of the More
> experienced Travellers about their opinion before I commit to anything.

Oooh, this is eerie. Rob (the list maintainer) and I were discussing
the Empress Wavefront just before we ate lunch.

It's really hard to say what it is and even harder to say what
caused it, because the references contains so little information.  It
is, I believe, possible to extrapolate a possible effect it will have
on the Regency based on what we do know:

1)  During their core expeditions, the Zhodani angered,
    betrayed, injured, annoyed or insulted someone or
    something.  Whatever the triggering event was is
    irrelevant, it's coming and we have to deal with it.

2)  It seems very unhealthy for Zhodani.  It is unclear
    whether all Zhodani are affected, or only the Nobles and
    Intendants.

3)  Somehow, the coreward Longbow stations were affected by
    it, so it is unlikely Zhodani-specific.

4)  The Regency as a whole isn't destroyed by it (There are
    'quotations' from Regency citizens dated after the Wave
    entered the Regency in 1205).

The obvious observation is that it affects psions, possibly by
inducing paranoia, megalomania or some other mental illness (or
illnesses).  It can be argued that the effect is stronger in Zhodani,
because they are much stabler mentally due to the ministrations of the
Tavrchedle [my spelling may be off] and are basically unprepared to
deal with this kind of trauma.  It's doubly damning when you realize
that the very people responsible for clearing up this mess are being
affected by it (I'm having images of maddened Tavrchedle wreaking
havoc by claiming to be 'curing' people).

Inside the Regency, psions are being affected by the wave, but not
quite as severly for a handful of reasons.  First, they've had plenty
of warning by observing the Zhodani and could have developed some
defenses against it (drugs to reduce psi sensativity during the danger
period, placing psions in low passage, relocating rimward ahead of the
wave, self-imposed isolation, psi shields and so on).  This isn't to
say nobody in the Regency succumbed to the effects of the Wavefront,
just that they were better prepared (and taken care of quietly, to
avoid scaring the general public).

Why didn't the Zhodani try these measures?  Well, I'm sure that they
did (they're not stupid, after all), it's just that there are so many
more psions within the Consulate that the problem basically became too
big to handle and their society collapsed.

(BTW, this also explains why the Longbow posts went offline.  They
were isolated and unprepared, totally caught off guard.)

> The Empress Wave could be a major changing point in the entire Traveller
> universe (although after the obvious effect Virus had on some people, I
> personally would advise MM to avoid any sweeping changes from the Empress 
Wave).

As I see it, the only major effect it would have on the Traveller
universe is the disruption of the Zhodani Consulate.

They won't be gone, though.  With 30+ billion refugees in the Regency
(and that's in 1201!) they will most certainly want to return home and
reclaim their territory.

-- Dave

--
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:48:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Shalom Zaidfeld <yu145850@YorkU.CA>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Zho's and the Empress Wave
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.960202144534.54673B-100000@afep.yorku.ca>

On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Paul wrote:

> I'm wondering (and forgive me if I've missed out on the initial discussion)
> what everyone's opinion is of the Empress wave.  What is it?  Why is it
> coming?  What caused it and what are it's effects.  I have some thoughts,
> but, as a New Traveller, I would rather hear from some of the More
> experienced Travellers about their opinion before I commit to anything.


Here is a wild guess..  Umm..  Grandfather farted?  :-)    Well, maybe
grandfather is coming back from his vacation..  or the core of the galaxy
has clapsed.. we just see the effects now (soon..)

what else?

     -Shalom Zaidfeld

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: yu145850@yorku.ca                            |      Anthropology Major
"One day, it will happen.. one day,                 |         York University
 one day it will all make sense"   -Bjork, Debut    |         Toronto, Canada



------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 02 Feb 96 14:40:51 EST
From: Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: MM on AOL
Message-ID:   <960202.145221.EST.34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

  Far Future Enterprises has opened a discussion area on AOL called "Traveller:
>From the Ashes". In this forum, discussions are ongoing about the direction
Traveller will take. These discusssions are CIVILISED and consist of much less
nastiness than the anti-TNE rhetoric spinning around this list. From this forum
I discovered that MM plans on using the Classic Traveller rules in a highly
updated form with no survival rolls, a comprehensive skill list, and a list of
available careers much closer to that of MT than TNE; he felt that there were
too many careers in TNE, and I would agree with this; who wants to play a
58th century construction worker?
  As for the background, Mr. Miller has already stated that what he calls the
"virus era" is part of the background. Nothing was stated in this forum on this
subject, but it seems that Mr. Miller doesn't want to exclude anyone. So, the
Virus is here to stay.
    You will notice that Mr. Miller has not been posting here. I don't know why
this is, but when I look at the forum on AOL and see the intelligent, mature
discussions going on there, and then compare that to the garbage being posted
here by a few people, I can guess...

topic, but I perceive Mr. Miller's goal as being to embrace all camps as nearly

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:39:32 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Zho's and the Empress Wave
Message-ID: <199602022039.PAA01094@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14: 49:22 EST
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 15:39:32 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

:
: On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Paul wrote:
:
: > I'm wondering (and forgive me if I've missed out on the initial discussion)
: > what everyone's opinion is of the Empress wave.  What is it?  Why is it
: > coming?  What caused it and what are it's effects.  I have some thoughts,
: > but, as a New Traveller, I would rather hear from some of the More
: > experienced Travellers about their opinion before I commit to anything.
:
:
: Here is a wild guess..  Umm..  Grandfather farted?  :-)    Well, maybe
: grandfather is coming back from his vacation..  or the core of the galaxy
: has clapsed.. we just see the effects now (soon..)
:
: what else?

My guess is that it's probably some psionic race from the core.  The
Zhodani piqued their interest and now they're probing this region of
space.  More than likely, the Wave only really messes up psions.  I
know that this smacks of DGP's baddies from the core, but it does all
seem to tie together.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:27:38 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: MM on AOL
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960202212738.00d2682c@TanSoft.com>

At 02:51 PM 2/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>  Far Future Enterprises has opened a discussion area on AOL called "Traveller:
>>From the Ashes". In this forum, discussions are ongoing about the direction

I read the stuff that there.  They echo a lot of the sentiments felt here,
but no flaming.  I suspect thats because you can't "quote" others.  They are
also averaging less than a message a day.

>    You will notice that Mr. Miller has not been posting here. I don't know why
>this is, but when I look at the forum on AOL and see the intelligent, mature
>discussions going on there, and then compare that to the garbage being posted
>here by a few people, I can guess...

Most of the stuff being posted here is not garbage.  Its a strong debate
that has turned a bit bitter.

There are two camps that while light years apart on what Traveller they
like, agree that they want it to continue.  Marc has definite plans in mind
for what he wants to do and he wants our opinions on things.  We are giving
him that, but not quite in a civil manner.

To that I ask the list to try to avoid arguments, flames, and personal
insults. Comments like "You are a close minded gear head" don't help much.
Lets try to keep this as rational as possible.  If Marc is reading these,
and I suspect that he is, he is going to consider comments from Rational
posts more than comments from irrational posts.

Now on to other things.  This "what to do with Traveller?" question is going
to be around for some time.  We don't need to argue about which rules
setting or which era is going to be used.  Marc has made that decision
already.  Its going to be Classic Traveller updated for the 90's, and
multiple (5-12) eras are going to be supported including the Long Night, and
Virus.  Everyone wins.

I think that the things we need to be telling Marc is the following:

   a) what kind of supplements we want
   b) what format do we want
   c) what kind of tech changes would be cool


We thank you for your support.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:34:11 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Gas Giant Refueling Drawbacks
Message-ID: <199602022134.PAA12089@boris.itlabs.umn.edu>

Michael Barry said:
>     Fellow Travellers
>     I have always felt that the gas giant refuelling is a little too pat.

Well, the one example of commercial gas giant refueling that I can think
of off hand is in the K'kree book.  It definitely shows the down-side of
refueling.  A K'kree merchant performs a wilderness refueling operation,
and then spends *six days* maneuvering in-system to get to the military
frigate that they were there to resupply....  Not terribly efficient,
but they couldn't refuel in the mainworld's oceans because the frigate
was on Interdiction duty over the mainworld.  That's one good reason why
big commercial ships don't all have one-gee drives, like the K'kree ship
did.

I think another example was in _Signal GK_, but I don't recall the exact
details of the situation.  In a case like the Regina system, where the
mainworld is the moon of a gas giant, I'd think it would be a lot more
tempting, and would encourage a lot more commercial traffic due to the
cheap fuel supply.  I vaguely recall that MT had a task for wilderness
refueling hazard avoidance, but I forget where it was.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:47:41 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: 34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: MM on AOL
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960202234741.006ff588@lynx.csn.net>

At 02:51 pm 2/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>  Far Future Enterprises has opened a discussion area on AOL called "Traveller:
>>From the Ashes". In this forum, discussions are ongoing about the direction
>Traveller will take. These discusssions are CIVILISED and consist of much less
>nastiness than the anti-TNE rhetoric spinning around this list. From this forum
>I discovered that MM plans on using the Classic Traveller rules in a highly
>updated form

        I might be able to live with that, depending on the result. Do you
know if he intends to provide something along the lines of a detailed
technical architecture like Fire, Fusion & Steel? That's the only part of
the New Era rules I'm really hard over about, that and where it interfaces
with the rest (damage, etc.).

>  As for the background, Mr. Miller has already stated that what he calls the
>"virus era" is part of the background. Nothing was stated in this forum on this
>subject, but it seems that Mr. Miller doesn't want to exclude anyone. So, the
>Virus is here to stay.
>    You will notice that Mr. Miller has not been posting here. I don't know why
>this is, but when I look at the forum on AOL and see the intelligent, mature
>discussions going on there, and then compare that to the garbage being posted
>here by a few people, I can guess...

        These seem like mostly intelligent, mature discussions to me.
There's a lot of people who've invested a lot of time, energy and money into
Traveller, of all versions. They're naturally upset and uncertain. Perhaps
if Mr. Miller were to provide some feedback here as well, people would
settle down. Right now nobody knows anything, and they're trying to make
sure their concerns get heard.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com        http://www.whip.com/~goldendj/index.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 578
***************************
